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Missing Podcast Episode with JL Collins? Annuities, Reverse Mortgage

Missing Podcast Episode with JL Collins? Annuities, Reverse Mortgage

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Tommy Mulhern · · 9 replies

I'm new to the community and have been working my way through the older podcast episodes. I recently listened to episode 34 from July 30th 2017, the second part of a series with JL Collins. At the end of episode 34 they presented a cliff hanger. They asked JL about the role of annuities, reverse mortgages and other tools for retirement. The issues is that I can't find the next episode in the series. I searched the podcast archives I couldn't find any more parts of this series.

Does any one know if this was ever published or where I could find the rest of the conversation with JL and / or any general info on annuities / reverse mortgages and if they have a role in the FI journey?

Thanks

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Replies (9)

JoeQ17

JoeQ17

1 month ago

Yes pension/SS both already act as annuities. Sounds like you’re preparing for retirement. Suggest reading tax planning to and through early retirement. That may also help on certain aspects on this portion of the journey.

BostonFI

BostonFI

1 month ago

I believe you're looking for episode 36. Here is a page with all of the ChooseFI episodes where JL Collins made a guest appearance.

I'll add another resource for learning about annuities, reverse mortgages, social security and other topics is the Retirement and IRA Show podcast.

Tommy Mulhern

Tommy Mulhern

1 month ago

Thank you so much for this link to the episodes! This is great, I really appreciate it.

Tommy Mulhern

Tommy Mulhern

1 month ago

Hey Roberto, thank you so much for this quick response, extremely helpful. You mentioned social security as an annuity in retirement, I'm guessing pensions would be similar (i.e. military retirement etc)

Roberto Sánchez

Roberto Sánchez

1 month ago

Yes, a pension would work in the same way. If you have a pension or expect to eventually have one, I would recommend reading "The Golden Albatross" by Grumpus Maximus. It was published by Choose FI several years ago and is still the go-to resource for understanding how a pension fits into a FI plan. In particular, not all pensions are created equal. Military and federal government pensions are essentially the gold standard because they contain features that many state, municipal, and corporate pensions lack.

Roberto Sánchez

Roberto Sánchez

1 month ago

I'm not sure about the rest of that episode, but I can offer a few related thoughts.

First, a reverse mortgage solves a particular problem: turn the static asset of a paid off house into an income stream. This solution seems attractive to people when they have essentially no other assets apart from a primary residence. It's the old "your home is your biggest investment" cliché. Additionally, it comes with a whole mess of strings attached. Basically, you are signing away your home. If you are in the FI community then I am willing to bet that you would never be a in situation where a reverse mortgage could possibly make sense.

Second, Big ERN (at Early Retirement Now) has done the best work on annuities. The one sentence summary is: if you find yourself needing to create a reliable income floor and you are willing to dedicate a chunk of your paper assets to establishing that floor, then the correct solution is a SPIA (single premium immediate annuity). Any other annuity product is a guaranteed waste of your money. I recommend reading Big ERN's content around annuities, as it really helps to put the right framework in place. For instance, most people seem to forget that they already have 1 or 2 annuities (i.e., Social Security; which pays out benefits in the exact same way as the best available annuity products).

hughbrooks

hughbrooks

1 month ago

I push back hard against Jeske’s narrow acceptance of the SPIA, and I do so even while recognizing that a lot of thoughtful retirement geeks, like Rob Berger, share his view. I bristle at this view because I own and understand my FIA with income rider. It actually competes well with the SPIA model.

The objection to an FIA with income rider rests on several observations, including the idea that they are more complex than SPIAs, they have fees that SPIAs don’t have, and the index linked growth is stunted by features like caps, spreads and participation rates.

Another downside often cited is the phantom bonuses and rollup rates used to aggressively market the annuity as though it magically grows money. And of course there is no inflation adjustment. Also, there are surrender fees that apply if you suddenly decide you want to pull out of the contract within the first ten years.

These are technically correct observations, but substantively none of these things diminishes the more important concept that the income rider part of the contract neutralizes all these concerns.

Yes it’s more complex. No argument there. Fees and return-throttling mechanisms are present, for sure. But when I signed the contract, I evaluated the only contract term that would move the needle for me, i.e. is the guaranteed lifetime income stream going to make this contract worth my time and money even after I consider the fees?

In the case of this contract, the answer was easy. The payout rate is going to be 8% of the original principal, every year, until I die. When I calculated that the payout, combined with social security, would cover my fixed expenses, I was ready to sign the contract. The fees will be assessed against my principal during the decade or so of principal payback embedded in the income stream. Those fees will not impact the 8% payout rate by a single penny, as that rate is guaranteed.

The muted index linked growth is just background noise that I can ignore. I’ll never enjoy the benefit of that growth, as I have calculated that I will never have to access the principal or its growth during my lifetime. The only access I care about is to that 8% annual income stream.

The phantom bonus and rollup rate in my contract do have a net positive impact. They are responsible for the 8% level of payout, as the payout rate is calculated using the role up rate against the principal amount plus the bonus. In absolute terms, that adds up to 8% against my principal, so I’m good with that.

The lack of inflation adjustment is a real issue. But it’s an issue that’s equally present in any SPIA contract. More importantly, the calculation I made looks at the practical impact of the income stream even after accounting for inflation erosion.

Out of the gate, the annuity income plus social security covers my fixed expenses, resulting in massive pressure relief off my IRA, which I’ll rely on only for discretionary spending, at a withdrawal rate that can go as high as 4% if I’m living big, but can easily shrink to 1% or 2% if the market is having a tantrum.

As the years pass, the lack of pressure on the IRA will slowly give way to the falling spending power of the annuity income stream, but by the time I feel that affect on a practical level, the IRA will have experienced solid growth that will more than offset the shrinking spending power of the annuity income. So I’m good with that.

The surrender fees are not a deterrent. Since I’m careful to only silo a reasonable portion of my net worth to the annuity, there is no spending shock in the future that will be large enough for me to abandon the lifetime income stream and reclaim whatever remains of my principal. That box is therefore checked, no problem. If anything the limited access to principal actually is an advantage over the SPIA, which requires you to permanently wave goodbye to your principal on day one of the contract.

As with any financial decision, buying a FIA with income rider or a SPIA demands that you identify the tradeoffs involved and decide whether the juice is worth the squeeze. In my case it is.

Finally the lingering question might be why select an FIA with income rider over its simpler cousin, the SPIA. In my age range, and with my ability to defer the income for a couple of years, the payout rate is simply higher than the rate that SPIAs are currently offering. So the choice is easy.

If I were older than 70, it happens that SPIAs start to pay much higher rates because the annuitant will die earlier and the insurance company can shoulder the risk of higher payouts. If I were that old, I’d choose a higher paying SPIA without batting an eye.

Roberto Sánchez

Roberto Sánchez

1 month ago

This is a particularly insightful and extremely well-articulated response. And it proves the "SPIA-or-nothing" point to a T.

For you, in particular, the FIA is something that you were able to carefully analyze and that you were able to determine was a better value for you. However, I submit that in the same way that the conventional wisdom (even in the FI community) of "put everything in VTSAX (or similar) and avoid picking individual stocks" is applicable to the overwhelming majority of people, the corresponding "SPIA or nothing" advice is likewise applicable to the overwhelming majority.

The proportion of people who are capable of properly analyzing an individual company (a la Brian Feroldi) in order to be able to make good single stock investing decisions, is tiny. And the number of people capable of properly analyzing a non-SPIA in order to make a good decision about whether it is a better value than a SPIA is likewise tiny. The conventional advice didn't deter you and the fact that it didn't deter you is evidence that it doesn't apply to you in the same way. But that doesn't make your approach good for others. In the same way that Brian Feroldi's individual stock picking isn't good for me and most other people.

We live in a world where the vast majority of people struggle to balance a checkbook and don't fully grasp the effect of credit card interest on personal finances. Because of selection bias those are things that don't really trouble the average person in this community. However, things like individual stocks and annuities are at another level and even in this community most people aren't equipped to operate those somewhat dangerous power tools.

hughbrooks

hughbrooks

1 month ago

I completely get your take on the relevance of the common denominator. It's definitely important. The only thing I'd add is that the risk profile of annuity selection vs the risk profile of individual stock selection are very different animals. Individual stock picking is a minefield of uncompensated risk. Annuity selection is definitely a minefield that contains many risky options, but the one option of FIA with income rider stands out as a lower risk exception to the rule.

These contracts may vary in terms of their payout rates, but they all share the same inoculation against the real annuity risks of high fees and low reward, as long as the contractually guaranteed payout rate of the selected annuity has an appropriate place in the retirement plan.

I can identify three annuity sales people on the web currently who are principled and will correctly steer people to the right vehicle for their needs. I can't vouch for a lot of other salespeople, and in that respect your point is very grounded and well-taken.

My own experience backs up your point dramatically. Before I woke up and educated myself about basic investment and the building blocks of financial independence last year, I was definitely in the generally clueless category you're talking about. I attended the dreaded free dinner presentation and was lulled into submission by a sales pitch that the annuity being sold would allow me to capture market upside with no risk of principal loss.

I met with the guy later and signed on for a product from a super reputable company that did offer some upside but miserably failed to offer a reasonable level of guaranteed income or an exit strategy that made any sense. Thankfully I applied some basic reasoning skills, did my due diligence within the 30 day free look period and got out of that dog of a contract with no harm done. That sales pitch and the crappy product it was selling presented the trap you're referring to, and it's definitely going to capture a lot of innocent people who go into it with the best financial intentions.

That said, in forums like this one, where people are taking personal responsibility and owning their analysis of risk and reward, I feel comfortable signaling that the FIA with income rider model deserves some consideration.

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