My wife's rebuttal to FI? There seems to be no consequences for bad financial behavior!

Stress. Limited autonomy. Poor health. Inability to support people you care about. Being completely dependent on government or private support. Dying in a Medicaid facility staffed by people who may not be trustworthy.

Sounds like a fatalistic / nihilistic thought pattern. May want to learn more about that before FI. And maybe talk with a good estate attorney about asset planning options because if she inherits your assets (odds are female outlives male) then she'll spend everything in a few years. There are spousal support trusts which protect assets while ensuring the surviving spouse is cared for. Annuities and/or insurance policies can be part of the plan too.

Long story short, it's easy to see where her beliefs are objectively wrong. She probably can see that too. But there's an emotional disconnect and that may be important to address.

HAH!! HAAAhahahaha lol…. Has she BEEN through bankruptcy…? My dad bankrupted our family multiple times. Does she know what it's like to have your cars reposessed and have no transportation? Credit wiped, squatting in your own foreclosed home with your babies wondering where you will go the next day. That was my mom. "Nothing ever happens to them" is insane. It's extremely traumatic, especially for the kids who DIDN'T make any of the irresponsible decisions that lead to it. My dad is now 72 and still working, even through a cancer diagnosis. He can't ever retire he'll just work until he dies after scraping by in his old age. That is an insane take.

My wife had a different rebuttal to FI.

Here in Australia, once you reach a certain age, the government gives you the aged pension, if your assets and income are under a certain threshold.

So her aunt who never worked nor invested, gets a decent sum fortnightly.

Her parents worked harder, have assets, and invested in a retirement account, and therefore neither of them receive the pension, and they won't until their assets and retirement income are reduced. They get to spend a bit more than the aunt, but are gradually losing their nest egg.

Why not spend all our money now to have nice holidays with our children, or work less?

My rebuttal is that I wish to break the aged pension barrier, the point at which our investments can safely pay us the same amount as the aged pension. I want to pass that point early, so that I can work part time to allow the portfolio to continue growing in retirement.

The aged pension disappears when we die, we can't pass it on.

It disappears if we migrate.

It doesn't allow us to live at home when we are at the aged care/nursing home stage of life.

A healthy portfolio provides options.

No consequences for bad behavior? All I can think of is how liberating it is to enjoy the consequences of "good behavior."

No stress from debt.

Not using shopping or "living large" to paper over some unhealed trauma or unmet need.

Not pressured to keep up with others in an unwinnable, meaningless race.

Personal finance is personal. The sliver we see on someone's social feeds, etc., is rarely the whole story.

My wife and I focus on FI because we're able to live the lives we want for us and our kids. We live forward, not backward, and live our goals and dreams. I suppose what I wonder for you and your spouse, is how much are you talking through money and how it serves your lives and goals, vs how much you're comparing yourselves to others?

Yesterday, I reminded my youngest kiddo: "Who's behavior are you responsible for? That's right, yours. You are not responsible for anyone else's behavior. Just because you seeing them doing something, doesn't mean you can too. You know our rules, you know our expectations, and regardless of how others act I expect you to follow them."

Yesterday, I reminded my husband: "The FIRE movement isn't really about making as much money as possible, although there are certainly folks who do that. What I've found most relevant to our lives is the impetus to really look at the world and its expectations and to examine what we really value. New cars? No, that's not important to us. Disney-esque family vacations? Not important to us. Full closets of brand-name clothes? Not important to us. FIRE helps us make values-aligned judgements about when and how to spend out money, separate from what the world, media, and consumerism tells us we SHOULD do."

Yesterday, I reminded myself: "Some spending is OK. The joy a $10 box of 200 ice pops will bring to my kiddos over the course of this summer - and probably next - is worth more in memories than $10 in savings. We're not saving for savings' sake. We're saving to live the kind of life we value and prioritize - which includes delicious cool ice pops on hot summer days."

I don't know if any of these will be helpful to your wife, but maybe? I do appreciate her challenge, though. It's easy, as people in this community, to forget that there are others who are not on this train, and who do NOT find value in it. How do we respond to them? How do we explain our drive and our investment in what can seem, to others, like a crazy approach to life?

Talk to her and ask her what she wants. FI isn't fun if it's all deprivation and not working towards a goal. Would she like to cut back at work, retire early, get to go on more trips, take up a hobby, etc. Also make sure she has some fun money budget and it's not less than yours.

What is your wife's role in the household finances? Can she be more involved to see how money flows in and out of the household? Does she understand budgeting? If you've been doing all of the finance driving, you might need to let her try it.

You could give her the amount that you're bringing in per month (after all normal savings) and let her drive. She can figure out how to buy groceries during the last week of the month, if she's splurged earlier in the month on dinners out or clothing. And your safe from her buying a boat because that takes a couple of months of saving. It'd be good for her to list things that she wants but doesn't buy and their approximate costs. As a paper exercise, you could sit down and look at if some of those purchases had been made on credit cards and how would finance charges fit into next month's budget.

I'd look for stories of people who have gone through bankruptcy. It's not nothing. I regularly hear about people still not able to get a credit card or loan 10 years after a bankruptcy (even if it's supposed to clear out by then). Something DOES happen to these people.

It also seems like an issue of the Instagram life. People are showing you their new boats and cars, but the consequences stay behind closed doors. There don't SEEM to be consequences, but that doesn't mean they aren't happening. There's way too much shame and taboo around talking about money. Listen to a few episodes of money with couples with Ramit Sethi if you want to see behind the curtain of some of the lives of the seemingly well off.

It's a common saying that "no one is ever on their deathbed wishing they had spent more time at work". The saying is used to justify spending more and enjoying life.

I think that saying is absolutely wrong.

I grew up in a very poor community and I got to see how absolutely soul-crushingly miserable it is to be broke and elderly. One of my first jobs was for a moving company and we were frequently contracted to help move indigent elderly people into medicaid funded senior homes. These poor people absolutely regretted not making more money in their lives.

I think there's a lot of selection bias. These people were isolated and literally hidden away from society with only occasional visits by relatives, if that. Your wife sees the benefits of spending and going into debt with her neighbors, but have her volunteer at a home for the elderly or with Meals on Wheels to see the other side.

I always remember one time with that moving company, we were contracted by a fairly wealthy elderly man to move him from one private elder care facility to another one. He had a 7th story apartment with a view of the mountains, his apartment exuded style and taste, and he himself was soft-spoken, clear-eyed, and deeply radiated contentment with his life. He was in his late 90s and his personal trainers kept him quite fit and active. He did laps in the pool every day. Wealth correlates to health and in old age, health correlates to happiness. This man was VERY happy he had worked hard in his career and built up a war chest against the indignities of old age.

FI is about long-term financial well-being and happiness. People who rack up a lot of debt now or just spend all of their income now will eventually pay the consequence whether it's next year or it's 20 years from now. Spend intentionally on what makes you happy. A lot of people spending all their money on cars, clothes, and such are just mindlessly buying things. Not because they love cars and their new car makes them happy. I'll take the life I'm living over a new car any day of the week.

Benefits of FI:

1) Not being stuck working until 65+ unless you want to.

2) Being able to take a sabbatical, stay home with kids, or completely change careers if you want.

3) Not having to watch your expenses when retired.

4) Not having to worry about daily life expenses because you have the money to cover them. I see people who have a boat or RV, but their house is falling apart. People who have brand new cars every few years, but are complaining about the price of gas or groceries.

I disagree that “…nobody ever pays the consequences (of living like the neighbors)!” The mental and physical toll of living paycheck to paycheck and being tied to the W2 hampster wheel is a very real soul sucking consequence that consumes the life energy of the masses. Your wife appears sheltered from these realities because she married well.

Gift her the Millionaire Next Door and the Simple Path to Wealth, consider attending a Camp FI or Camp Mustache together, communicate your “why of FI,” and perhaps have a values conversation (material things vs non-material things).

Congrats on your FI achievements thus far! Wishing you both the very best.

I would say you have peace of mind that comes from not being in debt and living with in your budget. You also have growing freedom in that you won't have to work forever. The time you are buying is worth more than a boat you can't afford.

Also you could look at Ramit Sethi's youtube for money for couples and watch some episodes with people with outrageous spending that do have consequences. Or you could search elsewhere on the internet for financial disasters. They are out there.