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Backdoor Roth workaround when you don't have a 401K

Backdoor Roth workaround when you don't have a 401K

MissEllie
MissEllie 75 XP · · 10 replies

Is there a work around for the pro rata rule? It says you have to treat all IRA accounts as one combined account, meaning opening a new Traditional IRA for a Roth conversion would mean tax implications that would require tax due on the total balance of all accounts rather than just the conversion amount.

I do not have a 401K plan, only traditional IRAs as I am self-employed. I use Gusto so I looked to see if I could open one up there but the management fees are too high to do that for backdoor Roth purposes. Any ideas?

Follow up: After much research, I came to the conclusion that for our situation, the Hidden Backdoor Roth (Garrett) is a much simpler path and equally effective. This is one of those instances where doing something more complicated isn't always the best choice. 😊 Thanks for everyone's help making this decision.

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Replies (10)

tesla

tesla

2 months ago

You’re right to focus on the pro rata rule, especially since all of your Traditional IRAs are generally treated as one combined account for this purpose. Being self-employed can make the available options a little more complicated, particularly when the goal is a backdoor Roth strategy.

Your follow-up makes sense as well. If the Hidden Backdoor Roth approach is simpler and accomplishes what you’re trying to achieve without taking on unnecessary complexity or fees, simplicity can be a real advantage. The best approach ultimately depends on your specific accounts, tax situation, and eligibility.If you’d like to discuss your circumstances further, feel free to reach out. A qualified tax or financial professional can review the full picture and help determine which strategy is appropriate

Mia Hermine

Mia Hermine

496 XP

2 months ago

I believe you can open a solo 401k and roll all your IRAs in so that you can do backdoor Roth conversions without pro rata tax issues.

Just need to make sure you set up 401k to allow roll-ins. You can also set up the solo 401k to allow mega back door Roth conversions.

So for example you can do:

  • Up to $24,500 pre-tax in solo 401k
  • Up to $47,500 after-tax 401k contributions which can be converted to Roth immediately ("mega" backdoor Roth)
  • AND $7,500 into a regular IRA and concert that to Roth for "regular" back door Roth

= a total of $55k / year in Roth and $24,500 in pre-tax contributions.

Lots of conditions apply. Like for example, you need to have that much available in self employment income. You should talk to your cfp and not take my word as a stranger on the internet 😊

But I personally do all of the above through my employer plan + regular IRA. It's an awesome way to supercharge tax advantaged investments.

tesla

tesla

2 months ago

That’s a great point, and the Solo 401(k) route can potentially open up some useful options for self-employed individuals, particularly when the plan permits IRA roll-ins and the relevant after-tax contribution features I also agree with your warning that there are several conditions to consider. Contribution limits, earned income, plan documents, eligibility, and the tax treatment of conversions all need to be reviewed carefully before putting the strategy into practice.

If you’d like to discuss your particular situation in more detail, feel free to reach out. Looking at the complete picture with a qualified CFP or tax professional is the best way to determine whether a Solo 401(k), backdoor Roth, or mega backdoor Roth strategy actually makes sense for you

Roberto Sánchez

Roberto Sánchez

3,412 XP

2 months ago

However, if the Solo 401(k) is set up at Vanguard or Schwab (and I assume this is true for Fidelity also), then you get a Traditional 401(k) and a Roth 401(k). If the goal is "sock away a few thousand $$$, up to the elective deferral limit", then the mega back-door Roth might involve a bunch of unnecessary hoops to jump through.

Mia Hermine

Mia Hermine

496 XP

2 months ago

Yes, for sure. Mega back door Roth only applies if you have enough margin to invest over $24,500 401k + $7,500 regular IRA.

Roberto Sánchez

Roberto Sánchez

3,412 XP

2 months ago

You are correct that the pro rata rule requires treating all of your traditional IRAs as a single combined entity, meaning that you can't work around it by opening a new traditional IRA.

I am assuming that you are interested in a back door Roth IRA contribution because you exceed the income level for making a deductible traditional IRA contribution.

You could tackle this in a few different ways:

  • Just sock the money away in a taxable brokerage (this has the advantage of being quite a bit more flexible in terms of accessing the funds in early retirement)
  • Open up a Solo 401(k) and contribute to that. I've had Solo 401(k) accounts with both Vanguard and Schwab. They are super easy to setup, requiring a 5-ish page form, and they give you all the benefits of being able to contribute as the employer AND the employee, as well as the flexibility of being able to contribute either traditional or Roth.
  • If you aren't above the deduction limit for the Traditional IRA contribution, you could also just contribute to the Traditional IRA and take the deduction.
MissEllie

MissEllie

55 XP

2 months ago

Thanks for the reply. Vanguard no longer directly offers or administers Solo 401(k) plans as of 2024, having sold its small business retirement division to Ascensus. Actually, at one point our small business had a 401K managed by Ascensus through Raymond James. But when we decided to go self directed we canceled it and rolled to Vanguard. Now, I really need to crunch some numbers to see if it's worth it to set one up again.

Roberto Sánchez

Roberto Sánchez

3,412 XP

2 months ago

I moved from Vanguard to Schwab a few years back and I've been very happy with Schwab. Their fund choices are on par with Vanguard (total stock market, S&P500, plus other broad funds, with most or all at <0.05% expense ratio). And the Schwab platform has a nicer interface than Vanguard. I don't know anything about Ascensus, however.

MissEllie

MissEllie

55 XP

2 months ago

I'll definitely check out their programs for Solo 401K if I decide it's really worth the complication. I'm reading Garrett and Mullaney's book "Tax Planning." I'm attempting to get my finances organized to fall inline with their suggestions.

Mia Hermine

Mia Hermine

496 XP

2 months ago

Oh +1 to this, sorry I didnt read this full comment first so some of mine is redundant.

I would only note that I dont believe the Vanguard or Fidelity standard solo 401ks allow for mega back door Roth conversions in-plan, so OP may need a slightly more customized Solo 401k if they want that option.

But that only really matters if they have even more than the $7,500 IRA / regular back door cap available to invest.

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